User talk:Hooligan

Investigations of Beeston Castle Well
Hi Hooligan,

Firstly, what in impressive effort you've put into this Wiki - thank you.

I'm pursuing some research into Beeston Castle's well and related leagends and investigations, including a close study of the 1935-6 project by ICI staff from Northwich. In your article on Richard II's Royal Treasure, sub section 'Treasure Hunters' you state that the 1930s group's rig was 'destroyed'. Do you have a source for this? I can see no mention in their logbook of the platform itself being damaged, but the old car they sometimes used as a winch for hauling buckets of rubble out of the well was vandalised. Additionally you state that two passageways were found in the 1930s - they actually recorded three. You also mention a 'systematic investigation' of the well in 1794 - again, do you have a source? The 1842 emptying of the well was apparently ordered by the new owner of the castle, John Tollemache as part of general renovations on his estate. A fourth hand account passed to the ICI team gives vague detail, but to date I have found no first hand sources relating to this.

Any thoughts you can offer would be much appreciated. Thank you.

--10000YearsBC (talk) 12:32, 16 March 2023 (UTC)

I'll get back to you, but have a look at the page Royal Treasure - I think the treasure was actually at Holt Castle (I should update the page!) of the refeerence I have listed on the site the best is propably https://archaeologydataservice.ac.uk/archiveDS/archiveDownload?t=arch-1416-1/dissemination/pdf/9781848021358.pdf (page 104). Systematic investigation is from https://www.english-heritage.org.uk/visit/places/beeston-castle-and-woodland-park/history/research/ and rig from https://www.bbc.co.uk/liverpool/content/articles/2009/02/26/beeston_castle_well_feature.shtml

Hooligan (talk) 16:30, 16 March 2023 (UTC)

Thank you for the prompt response. I agree the archaeological report is pretty thorough, as is your own work, and for what it's worth I agree that Holt is a better candidate for the Richard II treasure store, not least as it was directly owned by Richard, it was a more solid structure than Beeston with secure storage, and it had direct river access to Chester and the Mersey. I suspect the 1794 reference is probably just someone rehashing an antiquary's estimate of the well's depth - EH don't get everything right. There is no conclusive evidence that the well is 122 yards/366 feet deep either, only rumour and guesswork. The 1935-6 team reached a depth of 113.5 yards before water began seeping back in and they had to stop digging. They were working in the belief that they had at least another 3 yards to go, based on a vague report from 1842, but the only reliable depth measurement was the one they made in 1936.

The BBC report is incorrect about the last 'treasure' investigation, which was undertaken by the White Hart Exploration Group in the 1970s to early 80s, reported in Cheshire Life magazine and local papers.

When my research is a little further along I'd be happy to contribute to your 'Treasure Hunters' section if you like.

--10000YearsBC (talk) 17:08, 16 March 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for the kind words and more especially the offer to contribute once your research has progressed, which you are welcome to do. I'm always glad to have corrections/improvements as that is what the site was set up as a "wiki" for - so that people can add stuff and correct "errors" (of which I'm sure there are a few). As it is a "wiki" editing and adding pages is easy (ish)

I suspect the 365/6 feet depth may be influenced by St Paul's in London as 365/6 feet tall (an easy number to remember depending on whether it is a Leap Year or not). You mention that you are interested in "related legends and investigations" - is that just Beeston or anything else particular in the area?

Hooligan (talk) 20:41, 16 March 2023 (UTC)

At present the main focus is Beeston as I have a connection to the site. I've been studying documentation from CRO about the 1935-6 investigation, and I'm trying to build up a wider picture, including dispelling the 'secret tunnel to Beeston Hall' legend. However I have done some work on the outlaw gangs that operated around Tattenhall in the early 19th century, and one or two myths have become apparent there.

--10000YearsBC (talk) 09:13, 17 March 2023 (UTC)

Copyright issues on an external site
Hi Hooligan,

We at ShoutWiki received a message from the user who had copied content from this wiki into Geni.com without proper attribution. The person in question explained that it was a mistake and they've since removed the copyright-violating content from the Geni.com page. Based on a quick glance at the page in question, this indeed appears to be true. As such, there's probably no need to mention this now-resolved issue on the Main Page or on the Watergate Street page, so I've removed the "Copyright Issues" sections from both pages. Please let me know if you have any questions about this.

Keep up the good work! --Jack Phoenix (Contact) 19:12, 2 March 2016 (UTC)

File:Maingate1894.gif
Hello, I was wondering if you remember where you got File:Maingate1894.gif from? I research castle gatehouses and I've not come across this illustration before so I'd love to take a closer look, but I've run into a dead end. Any help pointing me in the right direction would be much appreciated! Richard Nevell (talk) 09:25, 20 August 2018 (UTC)

Hi Richard,

All I can see from my records is that I downloaded it in 2014. It is almost certainly out of copyright so feel free to re-use it. However, now that you mention it, the image cannot show the gstehouse from 1894, as the building in the background is the old Shire Hall and that wasn't there in 1894 (having been replaced by Harrison's new court building) - so the illustration must show the tower prior to the 1780's. I'm afraid there is nothing to see of the outer gatehouse today, as it has been built on by what is now the Military Museum - however while it existed did house another Richard, :) (II) briefly. The inner gatehouse - "Agricola Tower" - is a different matter - I just climbed up it the other day to see the view from the roof.

Any Castle gate-houses in North West Wales you need pics of? - I'm off there for a steam train holiday for a few days soon!

Rgds P

Arms of Chester Quote source
Hi Hooligan, I've come across your wiki (and wow, it is impressive!) by searching for a source to the following quote which describes the reason for the addition of the golden sword/dagger to the Arms of the City of Chester (as seen on Braun's 1581 map): "...as freely by his sword as the King of England held by his crown". I first saw it on https://britishcountyflags.com/2013/04/11/cheshire-flag/ and I can't find a proper source for it except for a Uni of Georgia article which I don't have access to. I was wondering if you knew anything about it, or know where I might be able to look? All the best. --LKin (talk) 14:51, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for the compliment. I think most take the quote from Burkes Peerage: https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Page:The_Complete_Peerage_Ed_2_Vol_3.djvu/185 There is a bit more under Hugh_of_Avranches. It might come from Ranulf's Charter of 1215-16 (which does refer to "pleas of the sword") a reference to the independence of the local courts ... but for the quote I think Barraclough pinned it:


 * "Local historians have, with few exceptions,been too ready to suppose that the earl of Chester held from the beginning a unique place among the feudatories of Anglo-Norman England; accepting and repeating the old tradition that William the Conqueror gave Chester to earl Hugh to hold as freely by his sword as the king held England by his crown, they have argued that the county-palatine, the deliberate creation of the Conqueror himself, was in existence from 1071. But this statement rests on the sole authority of the sixteenth-century antiquary, William Camden, and has no contemporary evidence to support it." https://www.hslc.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/103-3-Barraclough.pdf

Hooligan (talk) 21:39, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

I have updated the page on Arms of Chester to add a little more on the sword! Hooligan (talk) 00:40, 8 January 2024 (UTC)